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Ensign Sailing Forum

Rudder construction question
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Hello Everyone...

Bob did send me a very fine report. I have not gotten it up on the website as of yet, but I certainly intend to do so soon. Just finished moving from Maryland to Pennsylvania, been prepping for ECA's Annual Membership Meeting, and looking for a new boat workshop.

This conversation serves as good motivation for me to get it up on the website.

Less sanding with the 1". I tried to attach my Rudder file. Wasn't planning on doing a "documentary" some photos are limited. Think the depth of the drift pins is important. There were 4 on my old wood rudder so I used 4 on the new one. 
I bought 1", planning to glass up to 1.25", which is my current rudder thickness.

I like the idea of creating compression tubes with epoxy.  Thanks.

Jon

I posted some info on my process. If need have some questions, please give me a call.

561-312-9992

Bob

Ward,

I used a single piece of 1 1/2" thick Coosa sanded to the shape of the rudder, then I put 2 layers of glass over it.

For my new rudder I used a new stainless shaft that I had 4 new threaded drift pins welded to it.

I drilled out the rudder to the depth of the new pins a little wider than the diameter of the pins and then filled them with epoxy and set the rudder & pins into the holes. I let it set for @ a day or 2 as I used West slow cure epoxy.

If you send me your email address, I can send you a few photos of the process. I had sent a file to Bud of the process with photos for him to post to the site but it looks like it never made it. I was pretty pleased with the outcome. It seems very strong, especially with the 2 layers of glass over it. And I know it will not absorb any water! These wood / glass rudders are primitive.


Jon,

How thick is the coosa you bought?
Will the rudder blade be one thickness or two thicknesses laminated?
I do not believe you will need the 5/16” diameter drift pins with a coosa blade as the coosa is one piece.
I have concern about the compressive strength of coosa in resisting the crushing effect of the bolts holding the blade to the rudder stock.
Are you encasing the blade in a layer of fiberglass cloth and resin?

Ward Woodruff
Ensign 1253
Call me; 561-312-9992
Bob 

Bob, I just bought Coosa to make myself a new rudder. Did you do anything internal to stiffen it? I'm planning to reuse the drift pins out of the dead wooden one. Is more needed?


Jon Simpson

#160 Elan

Hopefully they read it

 

These are questions for the Technical Committee.


Steve Heinzelman

I just had to replace - re-build 2 wooden rudders. Ensign Spars provided one (foam with glass over) and the other I made using a template from the old rudder. The 2nd rudder was constructed out of Coosa Board instead of foam. I glassed over it. Not convinced that all foams are non-water absorbent. NOTE: ES told me I needed fill the hole I had to cut in the rudder for the rudder strap with resin. Hopefully just a precaution. ?????

Coosa is non water absorbent. Fairly lightweight and stiff too. Easy to work with. 

 

I could not find dimensions for a rudder on the Ensign Web site. My understanding when the technical committee put together a mold with Ensign Spars for new rudders, a template was made. I also understand that the template was taken as an average shape from several rudders and there was a difference found in the rudders. If this is true please provide dimensions of the new rudder mold. Please include tolerances and a drawing. This will go a long way towards keeping the integrity of the Class.

 

Also, I know there is a ½ inch minimum clearance requirement from the bottom of the hull to the top of the rudder. Not sure what purpose this is for??? However, if you need to change out a rudder you must remover the shoe if you want to have this ½ inch clearance. If you are closer to ¾ to 1” there is no need to remove the shoe. Making removal and new installation of a rudder MUCH easier! As there still appears to be MANY wooden rudders out there that need to changed out (they all absorb water and delaminate !!!!)  please evaluate changing this ½ inch rule.

*** you can install a rudder with a clearance of greater than ½ inch and then add filler to the top – but please use the KISS Principle - Keep it simple stupid ****    

 

Fun Boats! Enjoying them but want to eliminate as much maintenance as possible. Rudders are a big issue as far as I can see.

I’m trying to fleet build and looked at 2 boats recently - BOTH needed rudder replacements! UGH!!!!!

 

ES gets $1,250 for a new rudder. Add in labor and misc. expenses to remove and install -  either your own time or a boat yard and it gets very expensive quickly.

 

Bob Panico

#762  NO EXCUSES

#1669 NO REGRETS

 

 

    

 

...now that's a complete answer... I would have settled with "yes: legal" ! Thanks for the info.

The Rules Committee has decided that the ECA clearly intended for the molded fiberglass rudder to be legal as there was much coordination between the technical committee and Ensign Spars, our class builder, in designing the rudder. Many have been built, and the resulting rudder is much more consistent than the older wooden rudders. Part C of the cited rule does allow "fiberglassed" rudders, and although most people would interpret this to refer to fiberglass-covered wood, the spirit of the rules described in Rule 1 (Interpretation) would, in the opinion of the Rules Committee, make the molded rudders legal.


We are continuing discussion about if and how to make a rule change to make the rule language perfectly clear and consistent with practice.


Steve

Hello Steve, Stephen and Robert!

I’ll be interested to hear about the rules. For what it’s worth, I’ll share my recent experience replacing my rudder. The tail piece of mahagony fell off my 60 year old rudder last fall. I bought a fiberglass rudder from Ensign Spars. It has a stainless shaft; it did not have an opening for the strap (Bob at Ensign Spars said that the strap is not in the same place for all boats); so I had to cut out and seal an opening for the strap. Additionally, I had to trim off the top edge to comply with the 1/2” clearance rule between the hull and the top edge of the rudder. I made a new stainless strap; removed the bronze shoe, cleaned up that area as well as  the shaft “channel” area, reinstalled the original shoe and new rudder.

Regarding electrolysis, as you probably already know, I learned that bronze and stainless are close enough on the Noble scale. It was suggested  that I wrap the bottom of the rudder post, that sits in the shoe, with UHMW tape.

Keep me posted,

Henry Bliss
Phalarope 318

Thank you for your quick reply, Steve Heinzelman. I’m not trying to shake a hornet’s nest with my question, but confirm some questions I have received from prospective buyers.

I’ll be interested in seeing what the response is about the Ensign Soars composite rudder, which also seems to be dis- allowed by the language of the rule quoted. That rudder was my other choice in 2008 when I had my boat rehabbed.


Steve Wessels

ensign33

Hello Steve,
 
Does this mean the all-composite rudder sold by Ensign Spars is illegal for racing?
 
Ed Rose
#1484 Eraser

In a message dated 7/6/2022 2:25:22 PM Pacific Standard Time, mailer@mail2.clubexpress.com writes:
 
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Rule II.5.a states:

"No change in the dimensions, location, weight, shape or materials of the keel rudder, hull, or spars from such dimensions, location, weight, shape and materials which are standard for the 1962 Ensign shall be permitted, except such changes as are incidental to the upkeep of such items."

 

So according to the existing rules, the rudder would be illegal for racing. I've asked the rest of the Rules Committee to confirm my interpretation.

 

Steve Heinzelman

ECA VC of Rules

Elmo 612

Canandaigua Yacht Club

Rule II.5.a states:

"No change in the dimensions, location, weight, shape or materials of the keel rudder, hull, or spars from such dimensions, location, weight, shape and materials which are standard for the 1962 Ensign shall be permitted, except such changes as are incidental to the upkeep of such items."


So according to the existing rules, the rudder would be illegal for racing. I've asked the rest of the Rules Committee to confirm my interpretation.


Steve Heinzelman

ECA VC of Rules

Elmo 612

Canandaigua Yacht Club

A new stainless shaft was used. I paid for this back in 2008, do not remember total cost of rudder, but it was a bit less than getting one from Ensign Spars back then.

I have had zero trouble with this rudder, just paint in spring then launch.


Steve Wessels

ensign33

How much was it? Did he use a new stainless shaft?

I just re-built a rudder using Coosa board and a new stainless shaft.  

 

These glass over wood - water absorbent rudders are outdated. They are a major maintenance issue. The Class needs encourage and embrace new technologies. I want to spend more time sailing not repairing!

 

Enjoying my boat(s). They sail very well. I have received a lot of comments on how nice the boat looks. The ensign is a “Classic!”

We can keep the integrity of the one-design but evolve.

 

Bob Panico

#762 & #1669      

 

Rudder was fabricated by a contractor who works with the boat builder who did my rebuild. The boat guy is Dave Cadman in the Holland/ Hamilton area in Mich. I can pass along contact info to interested boaters.

The rudder fabricator used my old rudder as his pattern. I don’t believe he has made any others.

Dave C rehabbed 3 ensigns ( mine included) around 2008.


Steve Wessels

ensign33

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